Check out this proposal for the Indiana United Football League. Comment on it on Supa-Fan, leave feedback, or send an e-mail. This is an open-source proposal. We feel Indiana Semi Pro Football could greatly be improved is such a system was implemented in one fashion or other. INSPF, Vince, and Supa have all signed off on this proposal. We want to hear what you think.
Click on this link for the web page of our proposal or keep reading below.
Indiana United Football League
Semi pro football in Indiana has been an ongoing operation for 4 decades. In those years we have seen organizations come and go. Many people have shaped the system to its current version for what it is today. As Pepsi branded, every generation need to refresh the world. I believe that this is the time for the next refresh of Semi Pro Football in Indiana.
Currently we have between 25-20 teams in Indiana spanning 6 different leagues. Of those teams, 3 are in the bottom of their leagues and 3 compete near 50% in 2 other leagues and there is one that is very successful in their league. There are two leagues that contain 75% of the teams in Indiana, the IFL and the MFL. The past 5 years personalities have driven distance between these two leagues. Finally this year we have seen these personalities become less involved, and many teams under new leadership have risen with strong teams.
This past year we saw many teams fail: Knights, Riot/Phoenix, Affliction, Raiders, Rage. Each folded for different reasons, but what it has done is reap havoc in both leagues, changing schedules and playoffs. For two years the IFL has competed under an ideal number. The MFL has seen team after team leave its organization to seek out other leagues. This is no different than the many past years of semi-pro football and there will always be team that start up-split-and fold. Each leagues usually operates around an average of 8 teams and both continue to try to grow.
There has always been people talking that the two leagues should merger. Barring the personally clashes and grunges, which have grown old and weak, here are all the pros and cons if this merger taking place.
One league would have more cash as the duplicated necessary expenses are removed.
One league would have one set of rules
One league would have more power in getting attention of the Semi-Pro world, fans, and state sponsors.
One league would reduce the travel of many teams, including the teams in other leagues than the MFL and IFL
The two leagues are at different levels and many teams from one would be at the bottom of the other
There would be one less championship to win.
As you can see the pros outweigh the cons, and those cons can be argued about and worked out and here are some solutions.
There are two leading proposals on the table: That is the 2 division option which would leave the two leagues in tack but combine the operating cost of both, and there is the 2 championship options in which after the season the top 8 teams play for one championship and the next 8 would play for the second championship.
I have analysis the pros and cons of both and come up with a working solution that includes the best of both.
Premier Football Conference: (PFC)
Teams required to keep a roster size of 30. These are teams that are verified not to forfeit a game with the possibility of a forfeit deposit. Will pay $800 a year for league fees. Premium of $200 for rosters over 60. Teams would be selected to play in this conference and the selection would take place early in the off season.
Developmental Football Conference: (DFC)
Teams not required to keep a minimum roster but have a limit of 35 players. These teams are more likely to forfeit a game. Will pay $400 a year for league fees. This is more is an open conference altho a league vote would still take place. Teams could join up till the end of the off season around April.
This structure would help elevate the larger teams (like the cutters) from playing an undermanned team (like the panthers) and prevent the pointless blowouts that both leagues have.
Each conference would be separated into two divisions. Most likely the North and South for the Premier Conference and Most likely the East and West for the Developmental Conference. This would help cut down the travel distance for teams.
The regular season each team would be required to play each team in their division. Other game would be scheduled from the remaining league. Cross conference games will not be banned but would be avoided as much as possible. The league would schedule 10 regular season games.
Each Conference would hold a championship. The top two in each division in automatically in the playoffs. Based on the number of teams in the conference, the top 6 or top 8 teams in each conference are automatically in the playoffs. Not every team will make the playoffs. This forces teams to play each and every regular season game like it matters, and it will make the bottom teams in the Premier Conference reevaluate their commitment to staying in the Premier Conference.
Again there would be two championships, one for each conference. Ideally the would take place on the same weekend, either on different days or at the same location. You could tie the location of the championship based on last years all-star game. This is debatable.
Its been brought up what about the two championships playing in a superbowl? Well that would put a development team (small roster) (like the Patriots) against a Premier teams (like the generals). 99% of the time the Premier team would win, and really is that fair. There would be a superbowl between the two conferences, because lets face it, there is the nature of competition in all of us, otherwise we would not be playing semi pro football. It would come in the form of an All Star Game.
All Star Game - League Superbowl
The big game - the one game we can actually get scouts and college staff members to - Why, becasue it will be the best of the best in Indiana Semi Pro. Unlike putting the premier conference team against a developmental conference team for a, likely blow out, the best players would be selected from the Premier Conference to play the best players of the Development Conference, a more even keel of skill and talent.
The game would be held two weeks after championship weekend. The all star committee come would be responsible for overseeing the selection of the roster. The selections would be 1/3 fan voting, 1/3 team voting and 1/3 based on available stats. The game would be held at a central location based on the members of the league. The practices for the two teams can take place for 2 weeks based on where-ever the coaching staff selects.
The all star game would not be the celebration game the IFL has seen in the past years, the winning conference team would take home the all star trophy and possibly effect the location of next year's championship weekend.
A non-bias president will preside over the board. Cannot be currently associated with any team as a player, coach, staff, or owner (someone like Vince). Responsibilities would be to organize meetings, checking on committee chairs, make a decision on any disciplinary disagreements, and make cast any tie breaking vote.
Each team would have two representatives and each team will be able to cast one vote.
The majority of the work of the league will be done thought committees. Each team has the ability to be a part of two different committee (two reps per team). No person can be on more than one committee and no team can have more than one person one each committee. Each year the committee members will vote for a committee chair.
The committees would be as follows:
Recruitment and team retention:
Responsible for recruiting teams from within or just outside of the state.
Create a player recruitment plan including Indiana high schools and colleges.
Developing a best practices guide for operating a semi-pro football team.
Offer support for any team with questions.
Create the rulebook and propose rule changes a necessary
Weekly contact with the Head of Refs.
Handle all rosters.
Handle all complaints with refs and rules.
Website and Public Relations:
Create and update the league website
Attempt to find league sponsors
Release weekly press releases announcing games
Publish scores and send scores to other sites
Work with Recruitment on sponsoring HS Football Games
Attempt to involve local radio/tv stations
Scheduling and Stats:
Create and monitor all league scheduling
Assess all forfeit fines
Create a process and collect stats for all players in the league
Plan and run the all star weekend.
Oversee the all star voting
Operate all league finances.
The requirements to run this type of league structure would be a minimum of 8 teams in the Premier Conference and 6 teams in the Developmental Conference. This would create enough teams to fill a full 10 game schedule and two playoffs.
This is just a roadmap (for peace in the mid[dle] west) , the planning for ground work that needs to take place is yet to take shape. Its a honest attempt to look at the real possibility of bring together the two leagues and many teams not just in those two leagues. I looked at all the options on the table and the concerns of players, owner, and teams. But I want to here from you all what are your ideas, what are your concerns. Nothing here is by any means Final.
I like the proposal you've put together on here. Very well thoughout and organized. However, there are two points where that would raise concern/possibly make changes to.
How would you determine which conference a team would go into. Is this solely based on the team's history of the number of players it gets or on the numbers they had in the previous year? With the way teams and situations change so much in semi-pro ball from year to year I believe you'd have a hard time properly placing the teams in their correct conference.
#2 League Fees
So teams with a higher chance of forfeiting are going to pay less money for league fees? I would think you'd would have that the other way around being that the teams with bigger rosters you are in essence guaranteed that they will show up for their games. I believe that smaller teams would pay a bigger fee for entry or have the same fee for everyone and have the smaller teams pay a "Security Deposit" at the beginning of the year and if they show up for all games and pay all referee fees then they would get those funds back.
However these are only my humble suggestions you are free to agree or disagree with them.
I agree and like this proposal.
The only thing I would like to see added is to have the League Finances out in the open like the Heartland Football League currently does. They accomplish this by keeping the a copy of the ledger on the league website. That way the league finances are out in the open for everyone to see.
I have thought about this issue for some time and the 2 biggest ways semi-pro football can improve come down less teams and less travel. less teams means stronger more competitive and finacialy stable teams. to help with travel have 2 divisions north and south.Anything north of noblesville and from indy south. this helps eliminate forfits and makes sure all teams travel well enough to compete.
Jim, I understand your point of having less teams and more competition. However, have you counted how many teams currently exist in your proposed north and south regions? There's no question that there are by far more teams in the North at this point in time.
In my opinion, this idea has SERIOUS merit!
Way back in 2001, I proposed a "Two Tier" league structure at a pre-season FFL League Meeting. The proposal was rejected. The irony is that the same issues I saw as a growing concern then are continuing to wreak havoc on the mens amateur football environment today.
Until the issue of how any given league deals with new franchises and their development is truly embraced, the problem of teams folding and the turmoil left in their wake will continue.
I know that the primary two leagues at the core of this issue have their own mandates or agendas, however, it strikes me that there is an enormous opportunity presenting itself in this region to rectify things. The ONLY THING standing in the way of this coming to pass is someone showing some dynamic leadership and "carpe diem" (Seize the day).
The idea presented here could be used as a great starting point or 'foundation' from which to build upon. Others that have chimed in so far have provided some valuble thoughts to be considered.
One KEY is to be found within what I call "Spock's Law". That is that...
"The needs of the many, outweigh the needs of the few, or the one".
If the 'powers that be' would keep this 'concept' in mind, then constructive dialogue and action would be possible. On the other hand, if those same 'powers' seemingly continue in their strongly held, polarized positions, a great opportunity will be missed and followed up with the sad 'status quo' as things are today.
One thing I will say, this incessant, perpetuation of dissatified individuals increasingly attempting "half-baked" efforts at starting a 'franchise' should cease! This is not to say that some attempts are not legitimate. This is particularly true of some 'potential' franchise that might 'gain traction' in an area that is prime territory for a team of some sort. An area or region such as this lies between the south side of Indianapolis and the Ohio River where there are currently what? three teams (Cutters, Wildcats and Bearcats). On the other hand, some regions are already very well 'saturated' and will not really support yet another program.
I look forward to more of this important dialogue.
I would suggest that a 'mechanism' be included that would allow for an annual "tier evaluation", I agree with your point that the 'mercurial' nature of this environment will see any given team gain or lose strength over time. Barring a drastic change such as the Tennessee Titans going from 13 - 3 to 0 - 6 (59 - 0 WTF), one would hope that the change in Power ranking would be much more gradual.
As a beginning point, I would suggest that hypothetical 'Conference' assignments would be based upon the previous seasons record. From that starting point, upon the yearly evaluation, teams could move up or down in conference assignment. This mechanism would help in the development a new team OR help an older team that is going through leadership change or other 'rebuilding' activities that resulted in a diminished power ranking and performance.
The Bearcats would definitely be interested in hearing more about this and what everyone else thinks about it.
would this league include all teams all leagues or just the teams in the state of Indiana, this may seem like a dumb question but the Ohio Force and possibly a new team in Vandalia all participate in the MFL...if theres gonna be a MFL next year
I agree there way too many teams in the north and some fat needs to be cut. i should have elaborated more but i wasnt counting the gary area teams or the indiana mustangs. if they wanted to join it would be awesome to have a team and organization like the mustangs involved but they play in a much higher league and with respect to all the indiana teams, squads like the seminoles, raiders and timberwolves bring alot more competition to the table. i also think you would have to add the force to the league. cool group of guys and a talented squad even if they are from the state east of here. lol
and ohio refs are better lol
it all sounds great and makes sense so who wants to get the ball rolling which league commish is going to take the lead and contact the other to make this happen
Isnt something like this talked about every year. IFL and MFL will never be one, not to mention there seems to be several teams in the state who never get on this site anyhow.
I believe you're thinking of this proposal as a merger more than a new opportunity.
One Indiana league is not only inevitible, it's logical and will only help the teams that choose to be involved.
A league like the one proposed would only be what the teams involved make of it and not just one man's vision of what a league should be.
STFU! Everyone else here is posting WITH THEIR NAME ATTACHED AND STANDING BEHIND IT!
IF YOU CAN'T COOPERATE... STFO... WE DO NOT NEED YOUR B.S.
You could probably get your question answered if you had a real name.
Here are the questions / feedback posted on Supa-Fan and INSPF. They are broken down into categories. Vote on our website what you think of this proposal.
is there anyway the name could be chaged becuase if you wanna attract teams frm out side the state Calling your selfs the indiana united football league wouldn't work – Hennry, Force
95% of the teams would be from Indiana, so doesn’t it make since to call it the Indiana League? The idea is not to market to teams outside of Indiana, if the reason we do this is to keep all of our travel down. See next question.
Would this league include all teams all leagues or just the teams in the state of Indiana - Peckham, Force
While the League is titled Indiana - any team within a hour or so of the border would be included. I understand the options for teams Ohio, Michigan, and Illinois are limited. Each team would be voted on by the league.
To help with travel have 2 divisions north and south. - Sendo, Cardinals
There would be division within the conferences to help this very issue.
I look forward to more of this important dialogue. - Dane Hill, Pirates
Thank you Dane, I do know you have tried this before, you have written about it in the Past. That is where this idea grew out of. I look forward to more input.
How would you determine which conference a team would go into? by Clawson, Generals
The determination would be up to each individual team. There are benchmarks set on the min or max roster size. For example, the Raiders want to compete for a DFC Championship but have 40 players. They will have to lock in to a max roster of 35.
The second determination would be how much you want to pay. For example, the Knights have 30 players but don't have extra $400 for league fees, they will choose the DFC over the PFC.
I would suggest that a 'mechanism' be included that would allow for an annual "tier evaluation"...As a beginning point, I would suggest that hypothetical 'Conference' assignments would be based upon the previous seasons record. - Dane Hill, Pirates
I have thought about adding such a stipulation, and the only one I have rendered useful is that any team that wins back to back DFC Championships, would be automatically moved into the PFC for one year. This way, a powerhouse small market team such as the Patriots, who wins year after year after year causing the other teams in the DFC to give up hope, cannot happen.
Any other mechanisms and I feel that the big hand of the League would be forcing teams to change how they operate. Owner of each team know what is best for them and it should be really up to them to decide to impose a roster limit on their team. The one thing that would be under consistent review would be teams roster sizes. If a PFC team shows up for more than say two games under the 30 mark without any excuse, they would be demoted from the PFC the following year. It’s all about roster sizes.
So teams with a higher chance of forfeiting are going to pay less money for league fees? I would think you'd would have that the other way around being that the teams with bigger rosters you are in essence guaranteed that they will show up for their games. I believe that smaller teams would pay a bigger fee for entry or have the same fee for everyone and have the smaller teams pay a "Security Deposit" at the beginning of the year and if they show up for all games and pay all referee fees then they would get those funds back. by Clawson, Generals
The idea of the rising cost of league fees based on team size / conference placement is based on a per player fee. The larger teams can afford higher fees vs smaller teams because the fee per player stays about the same.
Holding a deposit to avoid forfeits is a good idea and will need to be debated. It would help prevent forfeits, but not all of them. Plus, for a new team getting started, $200 is a big expense.
The only thing I would like to see added is to have the League Finances out in the open like the Heartland Football League currently does. - Cookie, Bearcats
This is a great idea and I would support it.
It all sounds great and makes sense so who wants to get the ball rolling which league commish is going to take the lead and contact the other to make this happen - Hennry, Force
I don't think we have reached that point yet. I am trying to gain / show that there is support for such a system. We will get to that point soon enough.
Isnt something like this talked about every year. IFL and MFL will never be one, not to mention there seems to be several teams in the state who never get on this site anyhow. - Anonymous
This is something that has been talked about for year, but maybe it’s time for more action and less talking. The timing is right for such action to take place as each league has been weakened over the past two years and it doesn’t make sense to keep fighting the same battle over and over again.
Your right about how many teams in the state don't view this site. If there is support among the ones that are, then we can start to contact the others in the State. This isn't going to happen overnight and trying to kill it overnight isn't going to happen either. I know there are a few teams comfortable with their status in the status quo that they will resist change. I have expected this. Funny tho, the first one to bash this idea is the first one not willing to sign his name.
Teams that have shown interest/support.
The Bearcats would definitely be interested in hearing more about this -Tieken, Bearcats
One team from the IFL asking to be kept Anonymous
I have to agree with The Originator of the post. Since this has been out, we have gotten over 25 emails asking opinions and sharing thoughts about this.
The interest is huge.
And although we primarily do predictions in the IFL/MFL, I do assure you we have people that have made direct connects ( at least one ) with every team that has ever made a snap in Indiana semi pro football within the last 4 years.
Always note that many who may not POST on the site surely still do read it.
Much of what gets written here gets translated outwards also.
This will be a big deal, and could evolve the entire state/surrounding areas into something even bigger.
I guess this means I will be forced to make sure of better accuracy in name dropping, but again this helps in this area as well.
This was the kind of thing we needed. Looks like Christmas is arriving sooner than we thought.
St. Joe Panthers 0-8
I have few a few points to make.
1. I don't understand why you would break a team down to the DC League becuase of players. In 2007 the A.C.Patriots defeated the Indy Dragons 32-7. The Pats had 29 guys the Dragons had 70 to pick from but only dressed 45 for the playoffs. People say all the time it is not the number of players but the 11 on the field. I think that a team that has been playing and have their feet under them should be in the top league. A team like the Patriots should be playing top level teams every week. They don't want a pitty party. They want to play real football not hand me games that they will win by 40 every game. Lets be real here, what team in the DC can defeated the pats? NONE!
Take the Raiders, they won one game but becuase the have 50 guys they should play top notch teams thats crazy. Why would they agree to this. Now your tell them that if you want to play in the DC you have to cut 15 players. 15 players that could help with fund raisers, team fees, and get fans to the games. Thats not fair to them.
Hey raiders you can have 50 guys play and get your butt waxed every game or you can cost your team money and win a few games. That is a lose lose for them.
Every team is getting to do the same thing, play football. So every team should pay the same amount of money no matter what! A league with 16 teams that charges $800.00 to play in will have more than enough money to cover the cost of items needed for the season.
Teams change year to year. New teams come every year.
The Dragons came in and won the championship in their first year. Then went to the championship agina in the second year. The bearcats did the same just fliped the win and lose. The Wolfpack was a very good new team. The Raiders failed. The Vikings sucked changed their name and then bam they was a true force to be delt with. The Generals sucked for like six years then a new coach comes and blam they are in the championship game. My point is take the Best 12-14 teams make a true league and let the teams ball.
You can not guess or know what a team will be like year to year. We have seen a three time back to back to back championship team fold! You just cant control some things.
First, the Warrior guy is dead on the money.
Second, this would have to be done quickly as some of teams have to start paying league payments very shortly.
Third, you need to talk directly to the team owners and see what they have to say.
Only 66 days till Christmas Vince. Hell home depot had x-mas tree up Oct 1st. No Joke.
Frankie, Dane Hill does not need your approval to come back to semi-pro. He has our teams vote of confidence and that ALL that matters. Sorry you don't have a voice in it, what-so-ever, so keep crying over your spilled milk. Maybe I'll get you a sippy cup for x-mas.
Now, I like others think this is a great idea. My question is how does one go about making this happen and are there enough teams in Indiana to make a two tier structure? Either way, I am not signing on the line to join, but very interested in seeing where this goes. Still this does not mean we are going to back out of our interest in the IFL or even start to resolve the question of the Status of the MFL.
But I will say I am thrilled to see this message board working on something rather than wish for something.
It is being discussed, rest assured.
And MCPirates, yes. I am ALL too aware. I have already been given the 'honey-do' list for the bushes in front, the lights and the guest room clean up for my *ugh* inlaws to come in for the holidays to be started on right after Turkey day.
You think SOMOENE in our house thinks another one may be a procrastinator? ( If I spelled that wrong, I'll correct it maybe next week or something)
on the BRIGHT side - I am going to go "Christmas Vacation" this year if I can get $750.00 in lights past the mrs, budget wise.
I would like to apologize to "Frankie" and "Supa" for coming on so strong on "Frankie's" post.
I simply get very tired of all the negativity that has become commonplace on this forum. In my opinion, quite a bit of it is initiated by "anonymous" posters.
In this case, something outstanding has happen. "REAL FOLKS" with "REAL NAMES" are posting, debating and discussing. Like the idea itself, I did not want to see it digress into the typical results.
I have been here since the beginning. Believe it or not, this type of discussion was way more commonplace back then. It has saddened me to see how things have progressed the past couple of years. In my opinion... what is going on within this thread is EXACTLY the way Supa intended it to be in the beginning.
I hope I did not ruffle any other feathers.
if this league would have happen a year ago i honestly believe that the riot could have survived i think anyone who would be against this is nuts i support this 100%
I want to weigh in on this topic very briefly, but hope to follow up with more detail soon.
There are many who feel that this would be a good time to "let bygones be bygones" and move minor league football in this region to a new level.
I have to say that I very much agree, there is so much talent and competition in this area that we all deserve to play the best teams on a regular basis.
While I don't necessarily agree with everything in the original post, it is a well thought out plan that can be the beginning of a dialogue to make the changes happen.
I know there has been contact between league reps to, at the very least, see if this is something that would be possible.
I will say this, it sounds like it is an idea that's time has come, but it will take a concerted effort on all fronts to make it a reality. I know everyone wants what is best for their individual team, but WE ALL KNOW that, sometimes we have to sacrifice for the greater good.
dane i take no offense to what you said your right i think we all need to get with or owners and push for this so players on here if this is what we want they we need our owners to want it too
Very good, timely and wise words Wolf.
I think there is a need at this point to bring a couple of things together as one.
First, there is the “sub-thread” of Conference Assignments, a mechanism to allow flexibility in those assignments, and individual team “sovereignty” with respects to controlling their own “destiny”.
With respects to this section, I have to agree with “Indiana Warriors” and the co-signature of “Mack 55”.
While I agree that each team should indeed have input into which conference they would be assigned to, I believe that this “hypothetical team input” should not supersede the original purpose for the “two tiers” and the overall vision of the proposed league.
The foreword of the proposal seems to insinuate that one “implied” goal is to create more “stability” for each member team. Arguably, there are probably some teams that feel that they do not require any assistance with that issue. However, each team MUST remember that they have become a part of a “whole”. Like the proverbial “chain”, the chain is only as strong as its “weakest link”. It seems to me that allowing a teams opinion to carry too much weight might actually run contrary to the basic tenants of the “two tier” rationale. I think that “Indiana Warriors” makes this point very well.
Perhaps I do not understand the proposals “two tier” rationale? I mean, the lower tier is referenced as the “Developmental Division”. If the purpose is to essentially “nurture” a team until it is able to “stand on its own two feet” and ably compete against the mid-level or higher portion of the “Premier Division”, what is the rationale for them staying in the lower tier? This is where I see a contradiction with regard to the “mandated” roster size.
Secondly, there is the issue of league fees with respects to the Conference individual Team Assignment and the justification, rationalization or criteria for such.
While I certainly have compassion for the challenges that any new team may face, lowering the bar for the lower tier team will only encourage any “Tom, Dick or Harry” to take a stab at the formation of a new team in my opinion. I do not think that is what you want. In my opinion, what YOU DO WANT to encourage is that any attempt at team formation ONLY be considered by SERIOUS candidates. As many are aware, finances are a huge requirement of any team. Therefore, in my opinion, if a proposed team is lacking in their financial planning to the extent of not being capable of achieving a certain “financial threshold”, is this really a good idea?
Finally, with respects to this proposed league fee structure, what is the rationale for the higher fee for the “Premier Conference”? In other words, what do they get in return for the higher fees? Also, and likewise, is the $200 premium for teams with rosters over 60 intended as deterrence to large rosters? I would think that teams contemplating this eventuality will want to know.
Again, it is not my intent to “shoot holes” in this proposal. I am merely attempting to extend the dialogue and uncover questions that have not yet been asked but will nevertheless require an answer and consideration when that time indeed arrives.
You don't come around for a minute and you miss all the good stuff....lol
I haven't had an opportunity to really read over everything in this yet but I def love the concept
I have always felt that more leagues and more teams lead to a saturation that lowers quality
my overall opinion at this point would be...don't try and over complicate this
There are decades of examples and decades of knowledge within all the teams that could be involved here
No matter how much time and thought is put in it's not going to start out perfect....it is going to be trial and error
as long as everyone is willing to accept this and be mature enough to say hey this is not working and lets fix it then there is nothing standing in the way of this
It's not rocket science.....
AGAIN.....as long as people are willing to compromise
for the greater good and be MATURE enough to see the benefit of this then its all gravy
ultimately people just have to see the big picture....theres always discussion about IFL this and MFL that......the teams make the league not the other way around
on a side note.....I was def glad to see my man Dane chime in on this...He is def someone to listen to...Hell i drove from Elkhart to Anderson every week to play for him because I Respected him and his knowledge....I know how long i have been around and I know how much longer he has been around....we wont say just how long he has been around...lol
-Coach Bell / Elkhart Shamrock
Is there any way to set up a conference call or series of calls to discuss this with representatives from many teams at once?
These calls could be attended by the various team officials and could keep the ball moving forward on this proposal.
I am working on responding to all the post since my last, I will have it up tonight along with 2 other alternatives for the organization of the teams.
Keep up the conversation! The response has been great!
I have played semipro now along time. I think this is the most organized effort i have seen period in semipro. I think some of the major organizational problems have been adressed. i have a couple more thought that are meant to help progress the idea not hurt it only to help. anyone who knows me knows i want this to happen more than anything else. First to fix the issue of making sure the money goes where it is supposed to an accountant needs to be hired. we need to find one that has no connection to semipro football at all but experienced in sports. i did some searching and i found someone who has an excellent reputation and would be a great fit. second to help raise the profile of the league a seperate person needs to organize the allstar game and the players chosen will pay for the cost of the game. it seemed to be the issue that teams and players were contributing money and not getting to take part.lastly, the issue of travel has to be put at the forefront. if a team is traveling more than an hour it wont travel well. to keep this to a minimum 1 away game during the season will be against a team from the oppisite division. the during the playoffs it gets seeded and teams will have to travel based on seeding.
look, this all sounds good but its a nudge in the right direction, but if we want this to happen we need get start on this now, i have heard that this talk happens at the end of every semi-pro season? Leaders need to step up and take charge and get things rolling.
Thank you Vince and Dane Hill. Keep up the good work.
Warriors - Point 1
Your right. rosters size may not be enough to determine conference placement. Call it a base line for requirements. There will always be the one team that goes against the grain of the normal. I believe the Patriots had over 30 on their roster when they played the Dragons. I also believe the Raiders had over 50 at the start of their season, but as they went on, their numbers dropped and would be then directed to the DFC. I will talk more about this in a min.
Warriors - Point 2
I agree that we will have more flex money than the MFL or IFL would ever have had. Charging one fee for every team could be done, but understand that the idea was to lower the cost per player for the smaller teams. Maybe there should be a move to a per player fee on top of a basic flat fee for all teams Start out at say $300 and have a $10 per player fee. What are people's thoughts about that idea? This way the team would know what it cost per player and it would be fair across the board. This is a topic that would ultimately have to be determined by the first group of teams, including the price as the numbers of a budget haven't been thought up yet. Will work on that this weekend.
Warriors - Point 3
Your correct about new teams every year and how in this area teams come and go. But things haven't always been that way or should they. I believe you perceive control as dictating where a team belongs, well as that has been debated and will always, my goal is to allow the top 2/3 of the teams compete, while, preventing the lower 1/3 of the teams continue their annual trouncing. Of course we can have the IFL take in all the best teams in the state, make the 12-14 league and play ball, but what becomes of the raiders, the panthers, the blitz, and the wolverines? Not everyone has the privilege to travel an hour each way to practice to be on a team, and in some parts of the state, there just isn't enough of the demographics to support a semi-pro football team.
Mack55 I understand there is a need to make decisions quickly, also understand that this isn't going to be built over night. Team owners have already started to communicate and we are only in day three since this proposal, that time will come soon.
Dane - Some very tough questions. The idea of the tier structure once again allows two things. One: small teams to compete, and give new teams the opportunity to get started. There isn't an open door for membership. Each team would have to be voted on by the collective league, to ensure that there is a level of integrity behind each new team. The premium for teams over 60 can easily be dropped, I was hoping to promote roster limits under 60 but right now that is something can be tabled for another day.
Coach Bell - Thank you for the good words of wisdom. The mix of the old and new are the strength of this swell.
Sendo - I know you have contacted me earlier in the year. Your ideas will continue to be included. Accountable accounting is want any league needs. The concern of the all star games are noted. Should players have to pay to play in the all-star, no. Yes the all-star game will have to be worked on but that too is something we can work on later.
Some feedback through Vince's e-mails not yet covered. Many have questions about the rules and how the would be implemented, that in time will come as well. Right now we are still probing the interest. All will come in good time. What are your ideas, what conferences would you want to see, what do you think are the rules we should follow? I ran out of time to get the two alternatives to the conferences. They will get posted tomorrow.
Its nice to see some big league being talked about but here is my concern; this is kind of a last minute proposal for a league. If teams that are in the IFL or MFL see this isnt the right fit for their organization and those two leagues fold for this, those teams are in a situation. Some other leagues have already started meetings for new teams.
Another question is will there be a requirement to have locker rooms/showers like some of the bigger leagues require? A portion of the MFL, IFL teams do not have that luxury.
Please understand, I am not saying this is a bad idea but surely some teams have already talked about their proposed budget for the upcoming season and those questions have the potential to change those budgets from different league fees to having to upgrade their field.
What about possibly keeping the IFL, MFL for another year and using that time to get everything ironed out? Then anyone interested would be able to be prepared before the end of the season and get right on it after their last league game.
Please dont flame me for the questions as they are legit and I would like to know.
polk i agree but i think there are too many teams in the mfl folding to keep it which means my team is shit outta luck
Trust me, you have nothing to worry about. The Force will be on the field this coming Summer/Fall. And as for the league that we play in, I would have no problem playing in a league that is called Indiana!!!
I support this proposal and would be willing to do what I need to do to get the Force in the framework of this plan.
I just wanted to comment on a statement made earlier in this post. Someone said that the league commishs need to discuss this and I disagree. This is a decision that EACH TEAM in the region needs to discuss within their organization. Teams need to quit letting themselves be coaxed into staying in a certain league or relying on broken promises. If you're not happy or aren't enjoying quality football each week, it's time to make a change and this is up to you and your team, not some league commish!
the guys you speak of was me and if you had read more you would have seen where i agreed that we as players and owners need to get this going
Polk – I have to disagree a bit about this being a last minute thing. Having said this, I AM NOT the person behind the proposal.
Think about it, this is really the most opportune time to have this discussion. Having this discussion say three to four weeks ago when many teams within the MFL and IFL were in the midst of or concluding their Play-Off runs... would not have been a good time. They were focused, undersatndably on the task at hand.
Secondly, though yes there has been “talk” of this before, IT HAS NEVER approached this broad level of interest nor discussion.
I believe that you have brought up an interesting point concerning locker-rooms. It would seem to be a good item or requirement for the “Premier Conference”, however, even then, that requirement would leave out some pretty good teams. My “gut instinct” on that item would be that if “locker rooms” are a “show stopper” for a given team then perhaps that particular team may have “outgrown” this particular level.
Overall, one thought that I would like to make is that perhaps, the IFL would like to entertain embracing this idea or proposal. Something tells me that there is probably a big desire to see what Mr. John Bushman began to not be discarded so easily. However, if the IFL is not willing to consider some of the bigger issues this proposal is attempting, it will make consideration of this proposal across a broad spectrum pretty difficult.
Again, it is incumbent upon interested player/team leaders to be involved and then those team leaders to get the discussion going at a higher level.
I like the idea of of a two tier structure but it conflicts with the biggest problem travel. TRAVEL ISSUES WILL MAKE OR BREAK THIS IDEA.the lower tier teams would be spread out all over the state and one of the biggest problems these teams face is travel. lets assume there would be 12 teams 6 in the north 6 in the south. each team plays every team in the division 2 times. ten games plus lets say 1 or 2 preseason games against who ever the individual teams want to play. then when it comes to playoff time is when you split the league in to 2 tiers the top six teams play in the premier and the bottom 6 play in the developmental. then in the spring the two seperate winners can play. this does two things it helps eliminate excessive travel during the season and it gives the 2nd tier teams something to keep playing for. to address another the seeding will only be done by wins and losses and away wins and losses. adsolutly no points against or anything based on scores. this makes it so a team that is an elite team wont run up the score on a winless team and wont leave the 1 defense in. it makes more sense to me put in back ups so they can develop and contribute to a team later on down the road. My last idea would be too late to put in to effect this coming season but we need to play in the spring early summer. this makes it so we dont have to compete with high school football college and pro. also most people have kids in fall sports as opposed to spring early summer and thuse would help with player commitment. another plus is during the middle of the summer schools have to pay an extra person to be at the school during the games if we play when staff is allready there im sure schools would be more willing to work with teams. lastly ins indiana ITS TO DAMN HUMID TO PLAY IN THE SUMMER.
its footabll, humidity is the last thing on my mind when im on the field i dont think thats as big of an issue
Dane, I have thought quite a bit about what you had said then, and what your are saying now again. Yes, there needs to be a two tier system in place, and this would create a better quality football program here in Indiana. Also, again accountability is the key factors in creating this structure for all teams trying to get in, and teams trying to stay in this system. Thanks Jim
ok here is what i got the travel thing can be solve this way in the two tier league. For years I have always wondered why we have divisons in each league cuz when playoffs come around divison don't matter how many times in Championship games does only one "divison" get represented. As a member of the MFL last season we the force (a north team) traveled to the bearcats (a south team) while the Pats (a north team) traveled to the wildcats (a south team) now the game with us and the bearcats was great and travels was ok but if true divisons were used the championship would have had a team from each divison which cuts travel
ok to shorten and simplifly to cut travel divisonal play needs to be what the reguler season and carry into the play offs thats is how we solve the travel issuse and the league will have a divison reps from each in the ship
the humidity thing was a joke but the other issues i brought up about playing in the spring in the future some other teams need to consider. in the pacific northwest and almost all of the south they play in the spring.
Someone needs to organize a conference SOON and invite all interested teams to discuss this very important issue!
I think its all being made more complicated than it needs to be, weve had two operating and fairly successful leagues, if the MFL does happen to survive run this league in conferences, Interstate and Midwest, each conference ran as they have been as their indavidual leagues but have some unity and the same guidlines as a whole, schedule outa conference games, dont get me wrong its no easy tasks but as long as no one is really nit picking about smaller issues and focus on the bigger issues of setting this league up, it clearly makes sense to do something along these lines, Semipro is obviously growing and this easily seems like the next step to enhancing the level of competition and expansion.
On another subject, I havnt been on in a while so JT I dont know if you fealt like I called out your team, but I have all the respect in the world for your team I actually thought I was complimenting your team, you guys are just as deep as you are talented, Ive seen you guys up close and know what you guys can do. I also know what my team is capable of and were not the type to back down, wed absolutely love to play you guys sooner rather than later lol but it is a team decision, as well as a urs to make it happen, JT would you happen to have an email???
The response is still pouring in. I think that this is a real testament to the desire for something to happen.
Polk - I understand your concern about teams not wanting to participate in a new league. I also understand the issues of not having a set future. I want to assure you that there is plenty of time for talks to take place and decisions to be made. It is not until Jan that the IFL decided who to interview and the MFL much later. We are not even into NOV yet. That is a solid 45 days - taking out the holiday weeks. I had been working on these ideas for the past year and will say I did not want to present the proposal until after all teams were done with their season. Which happen to be last weekend.
There was a great movie on ESPN Tuesday Night called Small Potatoes - Who Killed the USFL. One of my favorite lies in the movie was, This is American and in America you have the right to choose. That is the case here. If the IFL and MFL merge, you still have GIFA, the NAFL, the MCFL, MSFL, and GMFL. All have teams represented in the State of Indiana. If your on the North side of things, you have the GLFL. All have their pros and cons. I assume your in the IFL or MFL and one of the reason you have chosen one of those leagues is because of the issue of travel. That is something this proposal is taking into consideration.
Your point about lockers is another issue. I don't see that being a requirement for the league. This league is really for AA teams. Locker and showers are a requirement for AAA teams. If you are demanding lockers, than perhaps this league is not a good fit for your team.
I do thank you for the good questions and by no means am I trying to "flame" you.
Alternative #1 - Cycle Option
I believe this was more along the lines of the original proposal back in 2001. Each team would classified into a division based on three categories, last season performance, roster size, and facilities. The scheduling and stats committee would take up the issue of evaluation each year. The biggest teams would stay in the PFC, and the smallest, under preforming teams would stay in the DFL, but there would be about 6 or so teams that would move up or down each year. The lowest preforming two teams in the PFC would automatically move down while the two teams in the DFL championship would move up. - My only worry about this would be players jumping around from team to team each year once they find out what conference they were in, causing havoc amongst already "roller-coaster teams"
Alternative #2 - Sendo Option
You draw a line across the state and each teams plays in their division. It is not until the playoffs would the different conferences come into play. That is then when you would have to travel, during the playoffs, which, is less travel than most teams do currently
The issue with Spring/Summer ball is interesting and a totally different topic all together. Now, why does most of the south play ball in the spring, because of the heat in the late summer.
Dane Hill is right, this has been tried before, but it came from the leadership down to the teams. Some of these teams hated the idea and split causing the start of what we have today. This proposal is different in that we are trying a bottom up proposal. I want players to ask the questions and comment, (exactly what has been going on) and then approach their team leaders about the subject. The team leaders then will have to take their concerns to their league(s). Its understood that not every single player or team will want to take this route, but if there is an overwhelming majority, and full support behind them with the players, it should and will take root.
I will apologize to the team owners. One owner e-mailed me with their concern of placing them in a position of not knowing what is going on and not having answers for their players. I suggest to the owners, contact your league president and ask them what is going on. To the players I say, relax, things will take their normal coarse of actions and will settle where they need to be. Again I say, this will not take place over night. Too often the internet, while being a valuable tool for communication and information, I feel it has increased our exceptions for instant gratification.
Now I understand that something needs to happen very soon. I am working on securing a phone conference, I will let you know more as I do.
I've wanted to stay out of this discussion as it developed and take time to think about the ideas raised here and those I've discussed with leaders in the recent past. Let me start by saying that I am deeply, deeply gratified to see this kind of discussion taking place here. The thoughtfulness and focus of the discussants is really impressive- and I believe that for the first time in more than a decade, there is a chance to build a special new community from the ground up.
I would rather stay out of the details and the logistics, but suffice it to say that a lot of great ideas and important issues have been raised here. I would certainly come down on the side of those who believe that the launching of such a league in 2010 IS a possibility- but it will take great focus, effort, and above all compromise.
Let me say finally that the voices in this thread are among those for whom I have absolutely the greatest respect insofar as this game is concerned. Lack of integrity has been at that core of the decay and collapse of many a team and league- and with the folks involved in the discussion now- that will certainly NOT be a problem. I am willing to personally vouch for the integrity of the persons who have spoken here.
Good luck to all, I look forward to watching things develop.
To Supa - Thanks for the words of wisdom. You make a great point in using the term "compromise".
C.Bell (Big Dog 66 - Is that right?) - Good to see you finally chiming in.
To everyone in the discussion, I would state another thing... patience. We can not get our collective "panties in a bunch" and try to go to fast. "Haste makes waste". Right now, I would suspect that some peoples phones have been "blowing up" on this deal. It would seem that this will not be the typical "off-0season".
As folks become involved with this, it is important to keep the BIG PICTURE in site. The art of compromise will be extremely important. As I pointed out to someone in a recent e-mail. Former Chairman of the Joint Chiefs and Secretary of State Colin Powell had some wise advice in his book "My American Journey". Toward the end of the book, he gave this quote,
"Do not allow your ego to get so close to your position that when your position goes, your ego goes with it".
I think that is correct. At any rate, there is a good discussion and debate taking place here. NOBODY will get EVERYTHING they are looking for. That simply goes against human nature. Two individuals can see the same event but tell two different stories about what transpired. The important thing is to get a workable consensus and balance that everyone feels they can take part in.
Have a good, safe weekend.
Been following this thread and refraining from comment. After the last couple seasons I've needed a break from football and this one has been no exception. I actually have stepped down as secondary contact for the Wolverines but considering this turn of events and that Cecil has no time to really be involved in any discussion regarding this, I have stepped back into that role, with his blessing, for the foreseeable future.
While I do like what I've read about this, I see two big issues:
First, by this site being so public, how many players are freaking out and contacting team owners about the future of their respective league? Is this discussion directly affecting people's perception of the two leagues and are we hurting roster numbers?
Second, what about owners of new teams? The efforts to make a new team are well underway, I'm sure, and if those owners had one of the leagues in mind, are they now waiting to see what happens with this? Are we hurting those teams chances to play or driving them to a different league?
Just my two cents.
Coach Dane...yes sir that would be me...
you know i was happy to see you chiming in...no offense to anyone else but we got history...lol
Bill....I would not think that it's affecting any players or teams....at least not for good reasons
as far as players go I would think new players are choosing a team that has owners-coaches-players that they feel good about and trust
just my opinion but as a player thats the reasons you play for one team over another...and in my playing time those teams I would go to battle against anybody
and I would think teams are looking for the same thing in a league
I dont know about the MFL but the IFL is here and will be next year if for some reason this does not happen
So really this discussion is about 2 established leagues....and if this thing comes to fruition then it will be for the right reasons
more competition - less travel - turning 2 strong leagues into 1 stronger one
and the 2 leagues are definitely 2A leagues...maybe over the years have had some borderline 1A teams but the structure of the new one would address this
and how many true 2A leagues are there around here where the teams travel any where close to less than even the current MFL and IFL have done....that answer is probably 0
Will it make some people and teams a little anxious to get something finalized...human nature def says yes....just waiting on getting a finalized schedule from a league has guys on the edge of a rooftop...lol
But again as some have said including myself....as long as people aren't going into this with unrealistic expectations then this can def work
and if not then as far as i know then both leagues will still be here
Truth I think that the proposal is making things to difficult. the money thing everyone should pay the 800, thats like 50 dollars a person plus equipment, that will leave more money in pockets for travel if need be.
2nd I am a player and I think if you going to make a merge just make it a north and south thing, dont be going making a developmental league, and a competition league. Each player wants to play the best, and just because a team is good now, dont mean they will be next season, or if a team is bad they will be next season. I say combine the teams yes and have 16 or so teams, everyone plays eachother once, and the tope 12 teams makes it to the playoffs, and then of course best play the best. No player will want to play for a league or conference stating that they are in teh sorry team conference, that takes alot from a players pride forget ego, everyone wants to have fun and play the best, and players are not goin to want to be voted on to make a allstar game to play against the best they want they shot just like everyone else would be. but i DO AGREE WE NEED TO MEGRE UP, SO WE CAN HAVE MORE COMPETIONTION, LET SEMI PRO IN INDIANA BE KNOWN, AND HAVE A LONGER SEASON THAN 8 GAMES PLUS PLAYOFFS.
Cam Ocho Cinco Johnson
Classic City Crush
I would like to thank everyone for their input over the last month. I am happy to report that there are talks between the two leagues to achieve some sort of combined league. I would be pleased with any progress to strength Semi Pro Football in Indiana regardless of how close they follow the presented proposal or not. I wish teams from both leagues the best of success, not for just their team, but for all the teams in the state. Please remember, chances like these don’t happen but once every 5 years or so. So please take careful consideration of not just your team but of all the teams you currently and eventually could play, for if it wasn’t for other teams willing to cooperate, you have no one to play against, for example, the Jay Co Panthers.
Supa fan, Vince, and myself are looking forward to the outcome of these talks.
I have been watching and reading very carefully everything that has been posted about this. And the last post finally lit a fire under me to respond.
Are we now being threatened? If teams do not join this league then they will have to go elsewhere to find a game? What the hell? This just went from a "we are a democracy and the team representatives will direct this league" to "Luke, we are your Father and conform to INSPF, Vince, and Supra's way of thinking or face isolation death" Also "chances like these don't happen but once every 5 years or so". What the hell is that? Are you guys like cicada's and go under ground for 5 years, then come back out and make a bunch of noise?
INSPF...You really made me rethink this.
I am not in anyway speaking for the KC Mustangs here. That is a board decision on where we play, but for Mike K, this is looking a little more like a dictatorship now.
Dictatorship? Does that mean Earl Parsons is still going to be involved?
Honestly, I hope the IFL stays intact. They have proven for the past 6 seasons that they have what it takes to field a solid, competitive league year after year having minimal forfeits, folds or problems. Not to mention the fact that each season has made it stronger, better organized league learning from previous seasons, establishing by-laws and rules modifications, etc...
Bigger isn't better as you only add more opinions and conflict to the equation. Even with 6-8 teams the IFL has experienced the effects of this influx of opinion. A perfect example is the Cutters joining the IFL and campaigning to abolish the all star game. Being a player on a member team, I for one was surprised the original teams didn’t stand up to them.
Look at the GIFA or whatever that crap was that someone tried to start last year, this will probably be the same. And 5 years?! Try every year, someone always has the idea they can do a better job and tries to shake things up. This is not to say I'm against seeing things improve or see a better system, it's just the same thing every year!
Welcome to semi-pro football!
I believe you have my post wrong. I will take the blame for the unclear use of my analogical reasoning. Let me restate what I am trying to say. I feel we need to support each other in what we do. I used the example of the Jay Co. Panther becasue of the forfeits, backpedaling, and switching that takes place year after year. As a result, I don't think many would consider scheduling a game with them.
We play football and like any TEAM sport, it takes all players to have respect of the game to enjoy the true spirit of the game. Isn't that what we are all here to do?
I do not know who is talking between the two leagues or what is being discussed. I was told by a good friend who is involved in the discussion that they are taking place and he did not get into the details with me. Of course I have my opinion on what course needs to take place, but as long as the end result is better than what we had before, that is what I am refering to and what spirit that drives Supa, Vince and My-self. We are trying to promote a stronger, healthier Semi-Pro Community.
I ask that all parties enter into the conversation with an Open Mind and an Full Heart for the Passion of the Sport, and leave behind the preference of Political Gamesmanship behind.
If there is not a democratic approach to making this happen, than chances are you will not get the buy-in that is needed, and the best chance of making a better Semi-pro Community will have passed, regrettably.
So is this thing still being talked about ? Because I would like to know because it will depend on where I play.
yes it is still being talked about and I for one realy really hope that it happens, i dont care how it gets done i just hope that it does
My Dream League Idea, and is no way intended to exclude players from long distances, just a "Dream League" idea I have had, would take alot to make it work.
I will use the example of six coaches or owners in this senerio, & these six coaches/owners design their teams and coaches.
Late winter, early spring, hold a two weekend combine at an indoor sports place or outdoor practice field (weather permitting) Normal combine "L" & "M" drills, jumps & dashes all to be addressed & documented. Also, each coach/owner can have their one own indivdual drill that they can personally evaluate each player with. The combine will have a fee to partcipate, in my opinion, I would like too see their complete player fees to show their intent & commitment. The combine to be held two weekends, incause a player misses one, can make up the next.
After the combine, the six coaches/owners, league board & ect all get together and draft their players! This would be the most exciting part for the coaches trying to get the best guy and to fill all needed positions. Guys reputations from previous years come into play, injuries or guys quitting can effect a team greatly!
After the draft, the coaches/owners contact their selected players and arrange loctions & times of team practices. (with-in a 25-50 mile radious of the field)
One field is selected for the season to be used on Saturdays. I will use Arlington in this senerio just because it was our field the last couple of years. The rental of the field should be the same if one game is played there, or three! If field cost is 1k a game (1k for easy math) instead of paying 3k a week for field cost, we will save 2k a week by playing all three games @ the same place. Also, the same location makes it easier for teams to scout each other, players and family from other teams to watch other games, and the refs will get a good days work in as well.
Preseason would be a simple Jamboree, each team would plays two halfs of football, each half being against a diffrent team, a total of 3 games played that day.
Game 1= A vs B / A vs C
Game 2= B vs C / D vs E
Game 3= D vs F / E vs F
Season, everyone plays everyone twice & develop seeds for play-offs. (10 games in total for this senerio) Everyone makes the Play-offs.
Week 1= seeds 3-6, & 4-5 play, seeds 1-2 bye
Week 2= seed 1-?, & seed 2-?
Week 3= Championship
Obviously, this would need alot of things to happen to work, but would be awesome competetive football & travel time would be a miniumum. Even rules can be applied of a coach "locking in" a selected number of players from the previous year. The draft proceedure will even out the roster with depth & talent, so no powerhouse or weak teams unless coach/owner does not do well in the draft. I feel even if the teams are thinned out to 30-35 players per team, this would still work, because every other team is equal as well! The draft selection and size of your "weaker" players also becomes a huge factor because that player WILL be playing. If roster sizes start getting too big, another team is developed. Late sign-ups, that do not perform in the combine, get put on the team in order of the draft in the order that their application and dues are recieved. Applications are recieved by an equal nonaffilated league rep so "stacking" or "hiding" talented players is patrolled. The possibilities I feel are endless!
Like I mentioned before, this is my wild and crazy DREAM Leauge idea that I had. I am in NO WAY SHAPE NOR FORM purposing this too happen, it is just an idea. This thread reminded me of it and I thought I would throw the idea out there for everyone to ponder the thought of it or to make fun of it, I don't care either way. Too be quite honest, I coached youth football for 5 years and some of my ideas for this came from that structure. We played several different cities, instead of making an ALL-Star team that beat everyone (because we were the biggest school out of the group) we would thinned out our four teams to be competetive with the 7 other cities one or two teams.
"Hit to Win"
generals#56 hit to win haha. what did you have, 4 plays all year? your terrible. quit representing the generals. your a has been, better yet a never was. your old and take steriods so you think your good? leave the generals and go play for a team that would want you. cause jt and the real leaders of the team dont. i didnt even read your post, just saw it was from you had to be something stupid. stay away from generals.
Don't speak for the Generals as a whole. How do you even know if the Generals want JT back. There are a lot of rumors going around that have JT going somewhere else. Copp don't let the hatters get to you.
I heard JT will be the coach in waiting for the Cutters if Brent chooses not to return to the sidelines. There is no doubt that there is communicatin between the Cutters & JT. Remember he helped them win their 1st Championship from the coaches box.
Well I have herd that the IFL Board doesnt want this to happen( there was a meeting yesterday ) where they stood up and said they wanted no part of this. Afraid of them losing the strong hold they have on the league.
I just want to wish all those out there that tried good luck until guys come with an open mind there is no sense in trying.
Closed Mind. I will say I was unable to attend yesterdays "meeting" since I had 2 surgeries last week and riding 6 hours would have created disasterous events in the car, but you are seriously mis-informed or just stirring the pot of BS and beans.
Yesterday's meeting had absolutly nothing to do with this. Nothing at all. It was on a 2 league merger and not all leagues.
Now if you would like to get facts please feel free to contact the people who are in the INSPF. They will gladly give you details of where they are with this.
Well Mike since I was there and you were not then I guess what I seen was mythical. The meeting was By the IUFL to deceide if the IFL and MFL wanted to do the merge there were 10 teams there. Like I said the IFL s not part of making one league so get your facts right Mike the voice. It didnt Help that Wayne wolfe ( who doesnt own a team or a league ) was there trying to slide his way into this crap. I am already in the IFL so it doesnt matter to me but it would just be better to have the single league. I will stay my butt up in northern IN and play my heart out.
Well well well,
If my involvement is the only thing that will keep this merger from happening, that is fine.
I will gladly bow out and wish you all the best of luck.
I hope for the sake of all involved you are able to find the middle ground that Brent spoke of.
I will only ask that you set your "pride" aside and try and see through the eyes of the rest of the individuals that are involved and affected by this discussion.
I stand corrected. Possibly. If the INSPF selected someone to be the commisioner of this "league". I say this because this thread is in the topic that the INSPF started.
The very first thread posted by the INSPF of this particular subject has this quote.
A non-bias president will preside over the board. Cannot be currently associated with any team as a player, coach, staff, or owner (someone like Vince). Responsibilities would be to organize meetings, checking on committee chairs, make a decision on any disciplinary disagreements, and make cast any tie breaking vote.
Please notice the term "non-bias". So with the group announcing that they wanted Wolf as it's commissioner (President as it is listed here) how can that be non-biased? I am using Wolf's name here because he has posted a thread eliminating himself.
I looked at webster.com for the term "hand picked" This is what I found.
Main Entry: hand·pick
Function: transitive verb
1 : to pick by hand as opposed to a machine process
2 : to select personally or for personal ends
Please note #2. For personal ends. This mean that you are trying to gain something by picking someone who will back and support you.
So...with these facts and not speculation presented please explain how a non-biased (?) party is picked and presented at the meeting, but 2 teams who have been in the IFL since day 1 were not asked what they thought until they are being made to look like the bad guy.
I am not looking for confrontation, I am looking for information. And my name is out here. I originally liked this idea and do still agree that a single league is a good idea. But not if it is selectivly built by a few teams. Plus the senior teams of all leagues need to be a little more involved please.
The problem here is there seems to be some confusion about this meeting and the merger. The idea that was proposed on this thread was separate from the effort that came about by Brent and Wayne talking to each other. The meeting that took place was related to that separate effort and had nothing to do with INSPF or this post.
It's unreal that the rumors are already flying. Those who were in attendance at this meeting know what was discussed and the issues that were brought up. This meeting was held merely to see if there was enough interest to go forward. Wayne was NOT asked to be president by anyone, nor was it presented in any way that he was in the running for that position. As far as his involvement, he and Brent are merely the facilitators of this. The fact that Wayne no longer has a team doesn't mean he doesn't have a right to try and make things better. The two IFL teams in question did seem to come in with a somewhat closed mind, but upon further thought, they are only trying to protect what they feel they've worked for and that is to be respected. However, they did agree to discuss it further at their upcoming IFL meeting which means there may be hope for this idea. If it doesn't happen, it doesn't happen. However, the misinformation and assumptions that are already flying around are upsetting and needed to be addressed.
I would suggest that anyone who's curious please ask those of us who were in attendance and not make assumptions based on what someone heard. Again, remember, this was a meeting to determine if there was enough interest. That's it. Nothing groundbreaking happened.
It’s been a while since I’ve posted on this topic, so let me take this time to update everyone how is proposal has shaped up and where it is headed.
The past few years there has been talk of merging the two main leagues of Indiana, the IFL and MFL. However, many posts have lacked the depth of though required to make something of this undertaking really take shape. My proposal was an honest attempt to paint a picture with details on what such a league would look like.
I’ve posted before, my role in this was to provide a spark to start discussion amount players, teams, and league board members. As was seen back in the FFL days, a top down mandate to change the structure of a league caused people to get upset and split the league. This was a full attempt to start this discussion from the bottom up.
I will state, I AM NOT in any way associated, talked to, or e-mailed any teams or leagues. IT WAS NEVER my ambitions to run a league or start the Indiana United Football League. IT WAS my intentions to start the discussions of such league, which seems to have taken place. I know the IFL and MFL have discussed some sort merger, but I do not know of any details, dates, or proposals that these parties have come up with.
Now, what may come of this, I do hope for the best. My attention has focused back to IndianaSemiProFootball.com the website. We are looking at ways we can continue to provide the semi-pro community with the even better services than last year. I do apologize for any misunderstanding in the matter.
Please understand that I was not trying to say the INSPF idea was not a sound one and wasn't appreciated. I was merely trying to clear up any confusion about the meeting that took place and explain that it was not connected to that idea. The fact that there were two similar efforts that came about at the same time and not related to each other means that there are more than a few people who would like to see one league and you don't necessarily have to have a team in the hunt to get involved and make things better.
Thanks Bill for adding your name to your post so that I can respond to someone.
I knew yesterday when I tried to point out that what happened Sunday did not directly come from this idea. It was a secondary plan that may have to happen if there is ever going to be a chance for this idea to work. If 2 leagues cannot come together as one and join in principle then how will 5 or 6?
With this being said, everyone can now see how NOT to do this. Going outside organized leagues rules and guidelines looks bad, creates the feeling of distrust, and can lead to league rules being implimented that can have devistating consequences. 3 or 4 teams following 2 or 3 guys with a plan WILL NOT WORK. It has to be up front, thought all the way through and presented in a way where there is a method for discussion and follow up. If your opinion is different, getting on here and posting under assumed name and calling people, teams, or leaguee officials out is childlike. Not childish but childlike.
This process has to be slow and deliberate. Trying to get a commissioner or league president is a middle to end decision, Not a prioroty one because as an example, I know no one from the Cardinals, and they may not know anyone from the Mustangs. So how the hell do I know that the person they are trying to get as President isn't an idiot. We have to know each teams make up and focus before we can start making decisions that may lead to them having to fold because they can't meet the requirements. And we have to present all the facts ALL THE TIME.
In football terms, when you are playing defense and the opposing offense scores on a trick play, who do you get mad at? Yourself first for getting fooled thinking it was one thing and it was another, and then the offense for fooling you. But if you smelled out the trick play and stopped it before it even happened the game changes. No trick plays here. Keep everything above the table and out where all can see.
I agree with the INSPF that if there is going to be a large league, the basis of what is layed out here is a good start. I will also be honest an forward as to say that I have submitted a few ideas and web-site that can be used to draw ideas to make a league strong and solid. IT CAN WORK. I have been in a league of several towns within a region that has more teams and players than this league will ever dream to have, even though it is on the youth level. The concept is EXACTLY the same.
Again, I still think there's some confusion. We're not talking about bringing 5 or 6 leagues together. We're talking about bringing the IFL and MFL together. That's it. Also, no one went outside any league rules or anything. This was a bunch of team reps getting together in the same room to talk about an idea. No true change was going to happen that day. Nothing was underhanded or shady. It was a presentation of an idea with the knowledge that we may walk away from the table saying it wasn't possible to go forward with it.
I like this whole merging the 2 leagues idea. What ever the league name is called or if even they all join ifl! The only thing i am wondering is why wasnt all teams invited to go to this so called meeting, where the idea of a merger was discussed! I have respect for all teams in both leagues but i dont believe any talks can be or should be made without all present! I am sure Brent and Wolf and others at this meeting werent hiding anything , but when not all teams are invited to attend something like this , it sure looks shady!
Of course all teams were invited.
I wish you were at the meeting Sunday so I could take your last few post with some authority on the subject. Since you were not, let me re-explain what has been taking place over the past month and what took place this past Sunday because I don’t want people to be misinformed about these events.
Over a month back, Brent Slinkard and Wayne Wolf has started talking about what it would take to merge the two leagues. They posted a web forum and each invited their respected league team representatives. After a few weeks of discussions, Brent and Wayne scheduled a meeting to present a proposal on how the two leagues could merge, what a merged league could look like, and what are some of the best options to choose with a bigger league. All the teams in both leagues were invited.
At the meeting Sunday, Brent and Wayne presented their proposal, which was not the INFSP’s but did draw some aspects from the many ideas that have been shared on this thread. While many of the aspects were discussed and agreed upon, there were two big hurdles that prevailed at the end of the meeting.
A vote was taken and all the teams in attendance were interested in continuing the discussion of a merger between the two teams. The outcome has yet to be decided, however it seems that Wayne has stepped down with his involvement with the merger to avoid any remaining conflicts, and that the IFL does not want to change its name or disband its organization. I feel both are moves that are necessary and are moves in the right direction in order to provide a successful outcome. Now the process moves to the actual league meetings of the two organizations in the pending weeks. While the final outcome of these talks may not be known for a while, that it what has happened to this point.
Bill stated it correctly by saying,
“The two IFL teams in question did seem to come in with a somewhat closed mind, but upon further thought, they are only trying to protect what they feel they've worked for and that is to be respected. However, the misinformation and assumptions that are already flying around are upsetting and needed to be addressed.”
That is the point of my post. Now to say anyone was closed minded would be incorrect. Some may have been defensive of assumed actions and roles of a few people and protective of whey they have been a part of for so long, but all did contribute to the discussion. Also, so say that is process was improper is an opinion. I am of the opinion that while either Wayne or Brent were board members of either league respectively, they took action based on the discussions of many people. It is often that official spokesmen of two merging businesses don’t speak to each other until there is agreed upon probable success of such action. There is nothing to look bad about, and to say such action could lead to league rules that have devastating consequences is absurd. To think that either man believed they were speaking on behalf of their league, you would be wrong. Anyone thinking that a merger was going to happen one Sunday afternoon without referring back to either league would be plain stupid.
If anything Brent and Wayne should be commended on their bold vision on where Semi-Pro Football in Indiana can be in a few years: live broadcast of games, double header weekends, league sponsorships, just to name a few. Such an action of this undertaking is something that hasn’t happened in years. That is what the real successful outcome of this past weekend’s meeting was. Not some made up league logo or name, or a timeline on a paper; but it was the frank and honest discussion of the ideas from some of the most successful coaches and owners this past decade from the likes of the Cutters, the Patriots, the Generals, and the Mustangs. Talking about the pros and cons of some big topics such as different playoff structures: from a straight run off, to an NFL format, to a BCS Bowl System, is what I found most intriguing from this meeting. It was a chance to forgo the status quo and think outside the box.
Call me new and naive, but these are the reasons why I have faith in this semi-pro community. The collective success and growth that we have seen year after year that makes me look forward to the next season year after year.
It is again, of my opinion, that following the current system of two leagues will continue to lead both leagues to teams that forfeit games and come and go on a yearly basis. Both leagues seem to have had enough of that.
Mike, again you say,
“ No trick plays here. Keep everything above the table and out where all can see”
This is exactly what has been accomplished this past weekend and how I hope it continues to be. While things will be slow and deliberate, now we all the teams know what is on going on and how we can expect things to move forward.
John Jackson - Pirates
if the IFL doesnt want to change their name or organization than why dont they just welcome all stable mfl teams in with open arms?
Ohio Force 99
not that i wanna start more problems but me as a player had no idea there was a meeting now should the players of these teams be able to share thier opinions i mean no one is asking the players who make up the leagues what they think
I think that a player rep from the 4 major areas should be present in these talks
I would have been a logistical nightmare to invite players to the meeting. That is what Team representatives are for. Just between the 20 or so people in the room, we typically ran over the allocated time for discussion.
Kurt, how about if people have questions they post them here? We can all answer them in the open.
Tyler, I think you asked the question that is on everyone's mind. The Pirates have applied, so have many other teams of the MFL. In fact, I have asked all the MFL teams to apply to the IFL. 75% of the ideas that were presented at the proposal were processes or things that the IFL already does. And actually when asked, not a single MFL team had any reservation with keeping the MFL name.
This leads us to the next step of the process and that is waiting for the IFL board to decide how they would like to move forward. What happens, if they choose to, is it places the burden on them in choosing what teams to accept and how many. I for one could not vote not accept a consistent, viable team at this point in time. Are there some teams active that are questionable for next year, sure there are. Have there been some teams once again get on here and announce they want to start a team who have failed multiple times? Absolutely. The toughness of it is coming across the facts and providing a deliberate processes for which this takes place.
To the IFL Board I say: Clear Minds, Full Heart, Can't Loose
The IFL will be alive and well in 2010. Long live the IFL and what John Bushman's vision stands for! Good luck in your quest to undermine their efforts, reputation and history!
Paul, and others.
Like I said, I am new. I know who John Bushman was and I heard people talk about parts of his vision but no where on the IFL's web site can I find it written. So just out of curiosity, and as a team that is applying to the IFL, what was John Bushman's vision?
JJ, you wont get an answer from them. unless you get a founding member who knew the guy... ive been in it since it started and i couldnt tell you his vision... i could tell you mine if you were interested...
I do not play for the Raiders any longer as of right now but i am in contact with them often and from what i know they were not invited to the meeting! Actualy most all emails still come to me and i pass them on! I may be back with the Raiders and back on the board so any info on the merger or any meetings i will pass on! I cant speak for the Raiders board but i know for myself this merger would be a great thing!! I to have been around the IFL for awhile and even to most meeting and i beilve alot of Mr. Bushmens vision had to do with loyaltiy and coming together as one big semi-pro family! I also think he was all about the players! So maybe a merger is in our future yet!!
I was told from a few guys who were there how the meeting went.
I'm not impressed with the position of a couple select teams.
If you want to take your ball and leave that's fine, but not everyone needs you.
Best of luck with your shortsightedness and immaturity. Have fun running YOUR league. It's starting to sound very familiar. Almost like another league we've been acquainted with...
Bearcat 47.........I have tried to keep my opinion off this message board. And even now, I am not going to go into my full opinion. I have been in the ifl going on 5 years now. I have loved every minute of it. There are alot of guys in this league that just make it a great place to play, even Kurt makes fun, lol, had to get that poke in big fella. I understand you heard some things from a couple of teams about the meeting, but things are not as they always appear. The ifl is our league, it is not run by one man, it is ran by the teams. The team reps get together at the meetings and everything is discussed and voted upon by each team. So the panthers who didn't win a game last year, has the same vote as the cutters, who won the championship. I am not saying our league is perfect, but every year we try to change the by laws to make it better than the last. I try to follow all of semi pro football in indiana, and I think you guys have built a great team down there. I would hope that you would apply to our league, and we are smart enough to accept you. Then my friend it will be "our" league. I would hope that maybe next year, the bearcats and the wolfpack can hook up for a game of some great football, whether you are in our league or not. To all in the semi-pro community, have a wonderful Thanksgiving.
Noble County Wolfpack
I suppose I should clarify a little.
It would have been nice if they had said something before the meeting as opposed to wasting everyone's time.
This is a small reason why I gave up my Team President position recently. If I had been at the meeting I would not have been as calm as the rest of the attendees.
I think what happened was disrespectful, especially to the two gentlemen who spent quite a bit of time to put it together.
It sounds more like the parties involved are just rooted into the IFL and don't want to change the name. It's silly.
Since I will still be helping the team in an advisory capacity I would have to say my advice would be not to attempt to join the IFL. If there are so many shortsighted people there who can't get over themselves long enough to greatly improve our sport in Indiana then I think the Bearcats should look elsewhere.
I realize that this small sampling does not represent the entire IFL, but since the rest of the IFL owners did not find it in their interest to attend the meeting then I can only assume that they were okay with the small representation they had.
It doesn't work wonders for your image.
I've heard rumors of the IFL planning on removing teams in their league(some with adequate numbers of players who did not have a forfeit last season) and replacing them with the potential MFL replacements. I would not put it past them, especially after they pump-faked on the Greencastle team last season.
Why? Smaller league with better competition? Maybe. But you cut the legs out from under the smaller-market teams and potentially force their players to go elsewhere.
This creates large-market teams. And as I understand it, that's not what the IFL was intended for.
I really am NOT trying to rub anyone the wrong way. This is the image I get and several others outside of Evansville feel the same way.
I do wish everyone in every Indiana league the best of luck in preperation for the 2010 season. I just think the IFL dropped the ball on what would have been a great thing.
I don't know if it's stubborness or laziness, but it's a damn shame for sure.
I heard that Kurt ain't such a bad guy in person. Just goes to show we all can be wrong sometimes.
The Raiders and Panthers should no longer be a part of the IFL due to them not showing up for their playoff games. The Shamrock had some car trouble and was not able to make the meeting. The wolfpack had some things that had been planed for sometime adn was also not at the meeting. The Crush did not have a Rep at the meeting. The Generals did not have a Rep there and I don't know why. Jimmy Johnson the IFL VP was there as was the Cutters and Mustangs. The Head Coach of the Generals was at the meeting but was sitting with the Cutters. From what I got he is no longer with the Generals. The Blitz,Pats,Force,Pirates,Wildcats & Wolferines had a rep from the MFL. The Cardnials and Bearcats was not at the meeting.
Why would anyone from the bearcats start dissin anyone from any other team when you did not show at the meeting. Maybe no one wants you in the new league anyways. You can act like you are all better than everyone else but you are in the same boat. You want to play good football every week.
The reason why this wont work is this
1. No one wants the weak teams in the league but no one has the balls to tell them. so we let them in and the same bs happends all over agian.
2. The IFL has rubbed the MFL teams in a bad way. Sid is a puppet for andy and a joke as a top rep for the IFL.
3. Everyone likes to fight on this message board and say this team is better than that team becuase they will never play each other.
I just wanna play some ball dammit!!! I do have a couple things though, why is it every offseason it seems like the IFL is the top choice of league for teams to jump to? ive heard this and that, one other thing is Ive heared a lot of the IFL revolves around the cutters, just hear say not trying to piss anyone off or call out the cutters, ive got great respect for Kurt and them guys. Just somethin brought to my attention. Id love for us all to be in a single league, I wanna play the absolute best in this area, this has gotten complicated though and I honestly would like to be optimistic about it happen but its lookin like a longer shot than when this thread first started. I hope the best for all teams in 2010, happy thnxgivin all!!!
hEY Mr. insider - if u realy knew any thing about the IFL. u would know that the Raiders and Panthers first have to be put on probation fot the forefited games , before they can be voted out. its in the league bylaws! Second of all i have known Sid a few years now and he does alot for the IFL, very good man!! Hey Sid if i dont land back with the Raiders maybe the Mustangs might be a good fit for me!! Wink Wink! Any ways i hope all isnt lost for the merger i think it would be a great benifit for all even the fans!! U could have 2 divisions with 6 to 8 teams and i really think that could help the smaller market teams and i would say u go north south playoffs and u wont have the forefits in the first round because u can save the 4 hour travel till later in the rounds!
Isnt this the second year in a row that your team has forfieted in the first round of the playoffs?
Sure I'm not that bad of guy in person but your one opinionated MO'FO!!
I've been an IFL guy since it began so i see both sides of the story...
In reality you cant blame the people who stood up for what they believe in... Can you?
They were and are founders of the league and just dont want to see it go ANYWHERE!
Closed Minded maybe a little but why not apply anyway...
HELL why not just have all the MFL teams apply...
The IFL policy is that ever team gets a vote so...
If the majority get accepted then you have a vote.
a VOTE on what teams get in and get the shaft!
If all of you get your minds together theres ways around this... even without a merger...
Tiek you take er' easy fella
Yeah sorry Peck phones been down, Ill give you a call today! Yea Kurt def. no prob with that, from what I heared from Goforth you are not a bad guy at all, hopefuly I can get him back on the field with us next season we'll see. Id love nothing more than to line up against the Cutters next season like I said I like to play the best. As for the merger it NEEDS to happen, I dont see the MFL being a very successful league next year if a league at all, although I hope it is for other teams sake. The name of the league shouldnt matter for teams wanting the top flight competition in this area, I can understand why the IFL would want to stay the IFL its been a successful league under that name for several years and changing it for this merger is almost pointless for them to change the name of the league, when its like Kurt said I mean most of the MFL teams applied for the IFL anyways which is another reason the IFL should stay the IFL teams wanna be in that league anyways, a marger can happen with making the IUFL and the two tier system, teams get it handed to em even in the NFL and it is a lil degrading to some team who may not deserve to be in the developmental one, theres maybe only a handful of teams each year that would deserve to be in it anyways, I think thats one complication of trying the merger.
look at it this way when the NFL and AFL mergered they kept the name of the stronger and more established league same can happen here as a guy who has played in both leagues there is good teams in both so why not join together and have the best league in the area