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Indy Dragons?

I am in no means trying to start a any trouble, I just heard that the Dragons are not going to be a team this year.

This is just a rumor I heard from two people, I hope it isn't true.

Just thought I would ask in a place I know they visit.

Like I said, I am honesty not trying to start anything.

Matt Steele

Re: Indy Dragons?

The Indy Dragons will have a team this year.
They just went through some coaching changes. Dave Hancock John & Tim carnes was on the coaching staff.
The Team felt that it was best for the team to move on. The Dragons have much Respect for these three coaches & wish them luck in what ever they do.
The dragons have no hard feeling for any of these coaches, they are great guys, just did not fit the Dragons system.
The Dragons have a new coaching staff and are moving forward.
I know that there was talks of playing the Broncos for a preseason game but im not sure if we have a open date. Josh T & Josh G are taking care of those things.I know that Josh T has a lot of respect for the Pirates ORG. and there coaching staff and wants to do a game with them.
The dragons have a good core of guys that im proud to coach.
I dont know where that came from about us not having a team but if you could let us know that would be great.
I wish all the teams in a the leagues best of luck and i hope i get to coach 1 on 1 with matt or dane.
thank you.

Re: Indy Dragons?

Thank you coach white. I am sure I know where it came from. We are going to let whomever say whatever. that is what this place is for. If they want to attack us, so be it. We are not here to air the dirty laundry, rather than to say that we are going into a new direction.
We have a system and are going to put the people in positions to fit that system, whether it be coaches or players.
As coach white stated, we have a new staff. we are getting new players and players that left are coming back since the change.
We will be competetive and thats the only prediction I have. We wish everyone a productive season.

Re: Indy Dragons?

Wasn't Tim Carnes the d coordinator for the Generals? I'm not sure about the other two, but Carnes did a pretty good job with their D.

You said that they didn't fit your system. Were they given a chance to adapt or were they just bull headed? You may have missed out.

Re: Indy Dragons?


Coaching is probably the most difficult fit for teams. Meshing a very diversified group of players with different commitment levels and talent is very very challenging. In four years for the Scorps this will be our fourth coaching change for the offense, however that is not uncommon for teams. First year team is always a struggle. Dragons are doing fine.

Good luck!!!

Go Dragons,

Scorpions #69

Re: Indy Dragons?

As I posted up I meant no harm, when I heard this I was more surprised then anything.

Good luck fellas.

Re: Indy Dragons?


Rumors are just that rumors. If anyone has a question or concerns about the MFL, you can e-mail ( or call (765-661-0027). I would like to eliminate this fog or secretive shadow that supposedly covers the MFL. Wolf, Dan Z, Dragon, Rabar, Stingman, Zeb or I can shed light on any questions. Please, respect that we cannot speak for other organizations, but we can give reasonable incite on most questions.


Scorpions #69

Re: Indy Dragons?

Yes, we did give them time to adapt. As far as Tim, yes, he is good with defense. His schemes matched mine so it was fine.
We have certain philosophies, especially on offense that we quickly learned were not going to be implemented.
We also wanted players coaches. We lost several players as a result of our staff. We brought it up to a full team discussion and vote. In order to protect the nucleus we have and to regain what we lost, we made the change. Other individuals quickly stepped to the plate when they heard of the vacancies.
So far things are back on track. If you want to discuss any further or are considering these guys you can email us at

your fine brotherhood. you arent stirring up anything. there are no ill feelings on our behalf. we had to do what was best for us. i know you'd do the same for your team.


Tim, David and John were not given any chance to adept, were not given any notice. Tuesday practice, we were told that it was a team only practice, and then emails were sent out to only one or two of us and told that our services were not needed.. This is only a statement from me no one else. We were just not a good fit, for what the Josh's wanted as Coach's.

Re: Indy Dragons?

On behalf of the team, thank you and Tim and Dave. It was a team matter and the team decided to move quickly. We did love your enthusiam but it did not take long to see that what we wanted and how we wanted it were not on the same page.
Again, we wish you luck in whatever team you gentlemen decide to help out next.
Thank you,
Indianapolis Dragons

Re: Indy Dragons?

most of the players did not like the way that practice was being ran.
Some players did not like the way some of the coaches coached.
The linemen did like John Alot they said.
Some of the D players really liked Tim some did not.
The Offense players did not like the O and the way it was ran some did.
We had some of our skilled players that called and said they will play for a new team becuase of the coaches.
So we had a team meeting and the players voted and they voted to move on.
We got lucky that we had a new coach that had got wind of the Dragons and came out that day.
The team tryed him out and they liked him and so he is now with the team.
I think it was a little fast and harsh on what went down. I think that we might have been able to work some thing out but we have moved on and we wish them all best of luck.
All three of you coaches can really help a team out it just was not a good fit with the dragons.
Good luck and keep the fire.

Re: Indy Dragons?


Not all players will like coaches. Not all coaches will like players.

Be weary of players calling the shots. When does it end?

Just my perspective.

As head coach of the Broncos, I have offended players. I have lost players. They don't always like me and I don't always like them.

I listen to a lot of what my players have to say, but when/ if any of them came up holding me hostage about coaches, I don't know if I would bend.

My opinion.

Lets say you (Coach White) are not living up to "this group of players" in game 6. Do they all quit? Do you have to resign?

Interesting stuff.

I would be interested to see Coach Hill and Beef weigh in on this, if they choose.

Re: Indy Dragons?

True, not all players will like the coaches, but they should all have at least some level of respect for the coaches. If that respect wasn't there, then the Dragons probably made the right choice to move on.

The bottom line is, we don't know what went on at practices and meetings so we can't say what we would've done in their situation.

Re: Indy Dragons?

T.O. was seen screaming at his O.C. on the side lines.
Nothing was really done about it. He put down his QB and not much was really done about that.
He pissed off the Head Coach and he was gone!
Dont get me wrong - I am a players coach... BUT if you do not RESPECT me and what i want to do then the PLAYER or PLAYERS will be delt with. That player or players will be punished to what i see fit. Now if they dont like it and want to cry and leave so what.
I have cut as you will say a few players already.

I understand what you are saying Brotherhood.
Like Dan Z said for the people who was not at practice and the meeting well you just dont know what went down.
Good luck to you all.
I just found these little smilies haha.

Re: Indy Dragons?

the players voted, but that was not the final decision. we have a committee set up. coaches will coach and call plays. owners will be administrative and put players where they should be with input from the coaches. coaches will stay within the parameters of the system and with an aggressive controlled approach.
brotherhood, coaches will always offend players. its part of the game. players dont determine action, administration does, with input. as coach white stated we were going to loose several skill players. with the change, they have stayed and our roster has grown. we will be fine.
the issue of us and coaches is dead. we have a new staff. good luck john, tim, and dave

Re: Indy Dragons?

Just my two cents, I have to go with Matt on this one, and stand behind Tim, John and Dave. I have know these guys for three years, are we friends? I would say no, I was a player and they were my coaches, period. I dealt with all three of them through thick and thin. I have gotten chewed out by two of the three of them more than once. (If you know them you would know which one doesn't yell)

The Dragons choose or elected these coaches. Regardless what the players thought, this was the hand that was dealt to them. If they decide to fold their hands and get out of the pot, so be it. I would send them on their way out the door with no refund. The way the whole situation was handle I probably would have to say was wrong too. I honestly think there is more to this story than what is being told, the story that is out right now is making the Dragon's management look bad. It seems like these three guys was taking advantage of, was given a position intill something that looked better came along. Held a private practice, then send them an email not welcoming them back while pointing the finger at the players.

Tim, John and Dave are good people, I might not agree with the way they do everything, or agree with everything that they say, but they were my coaches. I respected that and did NOT second guess them. These three guys put more time and energy into semi-pro football than I would ever dream of. They eat, sleep and s**t semi-pro ball. I even asked Tim once if he even had a job because all he talked about was semi-pro football and coaching clinics.

The way it looks, you robbed them of a season. You thinking they will land another opportunity this late in the season is just a way to ease your mind. Josh, you played for the Generals a couple years back, you knew what you were getting. The decision was made for them to coach, whosever decision it was, it was made. If you regret the decision that was made, change it, but change it next year. You owe these guys a 2006 season.


The above statement was based only on my opinion (for what it is worth) and in no way shape nor form a representation of the Hendricks County Generals or meant any disrespect to any or all names that was mentioned. I think Josh and members have done very well with the Indianapolis Dragons so far, I am looking forward to playing them in preseason and wish them best of luck in the 2006 MFL season. I just wanted to throw my 2 cents in and maybe just another view point.

Re: Indy Dragons?


My 2 Cents. I made a change in the offense in 2005 season, because the system was not working things had to change. To stick with what is not working is crazy. My decision was not better, but I can at least look at my guys and myself and say I had a plan or I changed it. Do not let a bad decision force you to continue to make more bad decisions. Each decision is not linked to the next. That thought process will lead you to a bad outcome. In life and in organizations. Since I made this bad decision I am stuck or I cannot change, BS. Lead and continue to lead. Many times when you lead you have to make bad decisions because of the situation or lack of good information or you have to pick the lesser of two evils. Many times you have to go with a gut feeling etc. You have to have balls to make decisions, and they are not easy sometimes or popular. Mr. Steele I would fire any coach that disrespected a player or the organization at anytime. Coaches are not untouchables or even team leaders like myself need changed if it is needed.

Josh continue to lead. A dumb plan is much much better than no plan at all. Everyone can identify a problem, but few can come up with solutions. You came up with a solution, hats off to you!!!! Now your guys will rally around that decision. Welcome to the world of running a team.

It is a honor and privilege to play and represent the Scorpions organization!!!

Good luck Dragons,

Scorpions #69

Re: Indy Dragons?

"You can't build a strong organization with a lot of committees and a board that has to be consulted at every turn. You have to be able to make decisions on your own."
Rupert Murdoch

Do what you gotta do!

Re: Indy Dragons?

You bring up a good point. It does seem like they were done wrong. That was not our intention. After word had spread that we did not have the coaches did the other coach approach us. We gave him 1 practice to see if he'd fit.
To be honest about the situation, the one guy we thought would not work for us, was actually one that worked the best. They are a group and we knew they wouldnt split.
There are more things to it than what are being talked about on here. This is because we decide not to air our dirty laundry. We are keeping it inhouse. The coaches haver our numbers if they want to talk.
We are not here to please anyone, just to fill in the blanks as best we can. We have a plan if it gets off track, we will try again. Adaptation is the key to any successful endeavor.

Re: Indy Dragons?

Mr. 69,

Anything that has anything to do with players or football related items Pat Wilson has put his confidence in me to make the decisions.

I am actually a part of the "board" so when it comes to out of game things I have imput. But, I am one voice of 6 or 7.

Before, during and after the game I am in charge. I don't answer to owners. I don't answer to players. I don't technically answer to other coaches. I am responsible for everyone, I am responsible for the fans. I am responsible for the play on the field.

When (and if) we win is when it pays off as long as everything else falls in line.

As far as disrespecting my team, if I feel something needs said in the negative about this team I usually air it. Our team is only as good as everyone who is a leadership role is willing to make it. i.e. if we have a weak link in our group, I usually kick them in the ass.

Owners own.
Players play.
Coaches coach.

We all make this stuff happen.

Re: Indy Dragons?


Do not mean to disrespect, however you should have been corrected for your Roster last season.

You disrespected your league and your team. After the Flyers season ended, I and other MFL organization close to Ft Wayne had several Flyers players that wanted to continue playing. I could have taken several very very good skilled players, but I didn't and would never. I would have smoked the MFL and had a very very tough post season team that would have been tough to beat, but what is the point of that. I would have disrespected the Scorps players, organization, league, fans, coaches, and myself. Winning is the goal, but with honor and intrigity.

Winning at any cost and price, no.

Say no to the ScorpFlyers or Broncados.

KC Mustangs are the IFL Champs, and I feel they were cheated the championship.

I know you will post that you were not any better etc, etc, blah, blah. However you took it upon yourself to make that decision for your team and the other teams in your league to stack you roster. You did not have that authority or right, Mr. Brotherhood. Now the other teams that worked all season long do not know if they could or would have beat the original team you started with. You took that away and made that decision for them, which again you did not have a right to do. As team reps, we have obligations to our teams and the league which you play in.

The MFL has some issue just like all the leagues, but I assure you the league has intrigity and honor amongst the teams.

My 2 Cents,

Scorpions #69

Re: Indy Dragons?

I will offer this assessment.

Obviously, this has nothing to do with me. My opinion is simply that... my opinion.

This is America, the greatest experiment ever created by man. Because of the ideas on which it is based, those philosophies have permeated virtually ALL organizations that are created. This endeavor that we refer to as Amateur (my word) or Semi-pro football is no different.

Each person or group that determines to form a team soon learns that there is a lot of responsibility that comes along with it. Not only do they have their own expectations but they have others to consider as well. Along with these considerations, they have also consequently thereby exposed themselves to criticism.
These two issues are of primary importance. How various individuals and groups deal with this issue can either make or break the effort.

At this point, there is no one here that can say IF the Indianapolis Dragons will be a success or a failure. Whether they will be a storied franchise of the MFL or a one year wonder. Many have "wrestled" with these same issues.

For their own reasons, "the Joshes" decided to embark on this effort. A while back while visiting their web site, they had a blog of sorts titled "5 questions to the owners". One particular question posed was " hard has it been to start a new team". I will not repost the reply to my recollection but what I will say is that I am fairly certain that their answer might require a little more thought at this juncture of their experience.

Experience... see, that is a big one. Many times in a conversation, a person may state something. Another may then reply with "...I know what you mean" (for street folk "...I feel ya"). For some who have truly attempted to "analytically" place themselves in anothers circumstance, I believe it may be possible to approximate an understanding. For a whole lot of other folks though, they have to actually go through the experience before they gain a true understanding. I believe that "the Joshes" currently find themselves in this process. Will they make mistakes? Unequivocally, they will. They are human and humans make mistakes. Though I have been doing this a while and played in this environment as well, I still make mistakes, have regrets, and hopefully learn from "THE EXPERIENCE" how not to repeat the negatives.

Not so different, this same process is involved with league structures. There is really no good reason for this. Currently, there exists two leagues (the MFL and IFL) who for all intent and purpose are "siblings" from another union. The FFL or GRFL. In a "perfect world", there should currently be one giant 20 team league in existence but because of "perception" and "personal differences" there is not.

As someone more wise than all of us once said, "...before you can remove the mote from someone elses eye, you must remove the one from your own".


Re: Indy Dragons?

I respect your opinion.

I just don't agree with it 69.

Re: Indy Dragons?

First i will say this could be long. If i my spelling & grammer is off then im sorry. Im not trying to hype myself up or anything like that, Coach Hill told me all about the monkey and im not trying to bring him out.

I got into semi-pro football when the Indy Tornados came back. The team was ran by Ira Johnson and Ken Smith.
For the people who do not know Ken Smith i will just say your very lucky. Troy Edwards owner of the H.C. Generals played on that team with me. We had about 18 players and one coach. Our practice was a joke to say the least. I played 2 years with the Tornados. a guy that played on that team my second season was Curtis Yarbor. For those of you who dont know him your are lucky as well. Curtis started the Indianapolis ALLSTARS. I helped him do alot. Im not going to air out peoples wrong doings but he did alot wrong. Dave Shabazz from the Indianapolis Bears was on that team.
And Pat wilson of the Broncos came out for a second.
After one preseason game Curtis fired the Head coach
Kevin Jones. Kevin was like a father to me. I respected him alot. When the New coach came we did not hit it off on the right foot so i left.
Coach Jones took me under his wing and showed me how the game of football was to be played & how to train in the weight room.
So as player i know what its like to like and dislike a coach.

The allstars lasted about 3 games and folded.
As i was trainin i torn my ACL-PCL-Partial MCL and Cartledge. I just had Twin Girls and i did not know
of any other teams close to home so i thought i was done with football for a while.
I then ran in to jimmy kinnee and he told me he was playing with the M.C CHIEFS! Now i played 3 games v/s the chiefs when i played with the tornados & i can only say that RESPECT Is not a big enough word.
The CHIEFS bet us down all three times. Watching them warm up made me justed want to go play with them.
They where perfect in all that they did.
Now i was just coming off a real bad knee injury and i did not think i was ready but i was not going to pass up the chance to play for a great team.
When i got to practice i watched the first day i did not have my pads.
My second practice Coach Hill told all the players this - I will give every player a chance to show me what they got. So when my chance came i took it and ran. I have nothing but respect for Dane & DH.
I learned alot from both of them.
I was a part of the last chiefs team. Rosey Potts played on that team. We was not great but we gave the COL lions all they wanted. I had a great time playing that year. I felt like i belonged with this team. I was having FUN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
The next season the Pirates was to be built. Things went down south and the team did not form that year.

So i went to play for the Generals.
I did not play much and i hurt my ankle real bad that cost me the last 3 games of the year.
That is where i meet coaches hancock,carnes and john carnes.
Well when the Pirates were a go agian i went back.
I just did not feel the same for some reason.
I thought that this was the team that i belong to but it was not the same. The players was not the same( some were). The drive to practice was hard i live in Indy. It just did not sit well with me. I felt that i had a bad year. So when the season was up and Josh G.
talked to me about a team in Indy i thought about it and said yes. I told DH as soon as i knew what i was going to do.

Now i dont think that i know every thing im only 24.
But i knew that if i took all the good from the teams that i was with and took out all the bad that i would be ok. When things started to go down i acted fast and saved my team.
I put 100% in to what i do ( im not trying to pat my self on the back) I go to the Ymca in the mornins at 5am and then back at 5pm. Josh G goes when he can.
I train unlike any one i know. I love cardio and i do it unlike anyone i know. I have put my own money up to try to get players out to do cardio with me.
When it came down to the Coaching change the players vote but I MADE THE FINAL SAY. So i do not hide behind anyone or anything. For the players that think they know me - well you dont unless you have played with me on the CHIEFS, PIRATES OR DRAGONS or unless you have done cardio with me or hit the gym with me.
Have you sat down with me and talked to me like i have with DH & Dane, No, no one has. So you can say all you want about being wrong for letting the coaches go- but you are not me and you dont know what went down. They are good coach that did not fit in what we wanted to do. We moved on and thats that!
any one want to talk to me about it, meet me at 5am or 5pm monday mornin at the YMCA on shortridge!

Re: Indy Dragons?

I would like to add a little to this as well. Dane you are very correct in your assessment. We, as owners, and as humans are going to make mistakes. We have already made a few and have learned. However, the decision to let our initial coaches go was not one of them. At the end of the season, good or bad, we can reflect back and learn.
As JT said, no one outside our organization knows the whole story. I am not going to bash them, period. Philosophies panned out, were totally different. Fortunately we learned quickly it wasnt going to work. Had we waited for a change in people, that we all know would not happen(you are who you are) things would be very bleak for our team. Instead we retained our skill players and had individuals try to fit our system.
We are owners, coaches, and players ourselves. We will not be told how to run our team and to convert players to positions they are obviously not cut out for. It is early in the preseason and we are not going to subject our players to unneccesary risks at this time. Yes, football is a game of physicallity, but there is a time and a way to get players ready. If you aren't going to respect the owners, you arent going to get very far.
Brotherhood, before, during and after the game, you are correct you are in charge. But the people with the money on the line are ultimately going to call the shots.
Good evening gentlemen.